Host Bryn Griffiths sits down with Rhonda Fox-Miles, founder of Fox-Miles and Associates, to unpack the evolving landscape of commercial and personal insolvency. Recorded at the National Credit Conference in Jasper, Alberta, the conversation covers everything from shifts in creditor and debtor behavior to the economic uncertainties influencing the industry today.
Rhonda shares real-world examples, discusses the critical skills insolvency trustees need, and reflects on how businesses and individuals are adapting (and often struggling) in a changing environment. Whether you’re a creditor, debtor, or just curious about the world of insolvency, this episode offers timely insights and practical advice for navigating uncertain financial waters.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Debt Collection and Insolvency
01:07 Current Trends in Insolvency and Bankruptcy
03:57 Economic Influences on Debt Collection
07:01 The Role of a Licensed Insolvency Trustee
09:45 Navigating Information in the Age of AI
12:52 Best Practices for Debt Collection
14:50 Understanding Good vs. Bad Bankruptcies
Fox-Miles & Associates: https://foxmiles.ca/
Episode Transcript
Bryn Griffiths:
My name is Bryn Griffiths. The world of credit and credit collection is always changing, mostly because the world is always on the move too. Well, today we’re focusing in on commercial and personal insolvency, and our go-to person is Rhonda Fox Miles. She’s the founder of Fox Miles and Associates Incorporated.
Two things always pop up when we check in with Rhonda once a year.
One, where have we been? Two, where are we going? It’s a complex and ever-changing landscape. Well, here’s our discussion with Rhonda from the National Credit Conference in Jasper, Alberta.
Okay, Rhonda, it’s been a year since we last chatted, and I don’t know if it’s fair to say a lot has happened economically in the country, but has much changed for you in the last 365 days?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Things have changed. Of course, we have outside influences.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yes, yes, we do.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
From the south and from even internally, Alberta, what we’re finding now are that the insolvency files, whether it’s a proposal or bankruptcy or whatever, are more involved because the stakeholders are taking more interest to try to protect themselves, creditors, to protect themselves. So now we get to be mediator and determine whether or not their documents are good.
Bryn Griffiths:
I’m going to use my quote fingers here. You use the term “involved.” Does this mean there’s more attention than anything?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Some of the creditors have been notorious for not taking any involvement in the process at all. Okay. Because they get our papers, they file a proof of claim. I’m done.
Bryn Griffiths:
Right.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
But they are starting to phone and say, “What about this?” Or “What about that?” So I don’t know so much that it’s the creditors taking more involvement or the debtors are becoming more sophisticated in taking certain turns that need to be looked at.
Bryn Griffiths:
Certain turns. Okay. Man, I don’t even know where to Should I follow down that route or is that good enough for you? You’re good with that?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I got a case right now. They had a business and the husband sold it to the wife.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
The wife then sold it to her brother-in-law.
Bryn Griffiths:
Immediately?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Or within a year? Okay.
Bryn Griffiths:
Right.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And so now the brother-in-law has the business. The husband and wife are bankrupt.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Please show me the paper trail. Where did all this money go?
Bryn Griffiths:
I see. All right. Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And there is no paper trail.
Bryn Griffiths:
No wonder there’s more involvement in things like that. People are getting more creative, huh?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yes.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay. So where do you see things going here in the next year? ‘Cause there’s all sorts of stuff going on. Okay. Let’s start with Alberta. So there’s the referendum that’s probably sending a few red flags up across the rest of the country and will as we get closer to October. But so we’ve got that going on. We see what’s heading south. I don’t know what’s going on from one day to the next, what’s happening down there.
Bryn Griffiths:
So are you a little nervous about things or are you just getting busier?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I’m predicting that we’re going to get busier.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Not just because of the South, right? The uncertainty in the economy.
Bryn Griffiths:
Correct.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
This referendum in Alberta is at least—
Bryn Griffiths:
Question marks, whether you wish to— it doesn’t matter which side you’re on. There’s going to be question marks.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yeah. So it’s not a place to invest right now. Any investors are kind of holding back to do anything. And then you still have Revenue Canada trying to collect all those CERB payments that were paid out.
Bryn Griffiths:
Are they behind, by the way?
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay. Okay.
Bryn Griffiths:
Just wondering, just hearing these stories. So I thought I’d, I’d ask you, you’re far closer to that than me.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And they’re released in a bankruptcy.
Bryn Griffiths:
Oh, okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Right. Because they were given out. It’s not trust funds. It’s not fraud, embezzlement, misappropriation. Right. So if somebody goes bankrupt, the debt is gone.
Bryn Griffiths:
Right.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
For businesses as well as personally. So I see those things starting to come to the top because the government’s trying to collect and maybe there isn’t anything or The perception is, hey, everybody’s having a rough time, back off a little bit.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yeah.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yeah. And then they’re going to come collecting as some of the creditors and that. And that’s when I think we’ll see more proposals than actual bankruptcies, I think, because there is some money still there. But with like in Alberta, the cost of living and that, there is no disposable income between everything going up. It’s cost of gas just to go anywhere. Your groceries, everything is going up because everything gets transported. And if it’s not transported, it’s fertilized here.
Bryn Griffiths:
Right.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Everything, that component is in there.
Bryn Griffiths:
So I don’t know if you’re saying this or not, but it sounds like it’s crazier and busier than it was the last time we talked.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yeah, I think that we are. I can remember the government saying, hey guys, there’s a big, huge tsunami of bankruptcies coming after the pandemic. And we sat there and that tsunami never occurred. I think we’re still ahead of it. I think there is going to be a correction. What’s it going to look like? Not sure. It’s not going to be pretty.
Bryn Griffiths:
The other thing too, and I’m, we could go back 6 years and talk about the pandemic and how everybody said, oh, we’re never going to recover.
Bryn Griffiths:
Oh, this is never going to work.
Bryn Griffiths:
I see disaster on the horizon. Yet somehow we find our way through it.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yeah. But we’re Canadians. That’s why.
Bryn Griffiths:
Is that our default?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
We’re Canadians.
Bryn Griffiths:
Oh no.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Oh no.
Bryn Griffiths:
It’s crazy. Let’s talk about, let’s talk about since the pandemic, has there been an escalation, a noticeable escalation to now? Or do you think we kind of found our way? I am amazed at some companies who survived the pandemic and found a way to reinvent themselves and be very successful. And I’ve got nothing but the utmost respect for people like that.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
They pivoted at the right time to the right market. And they, there’s a lot of people that did try to pivot and it didn’t work. I would say the numbers, they’re higher than pre-pandemic, but they’re not of a tsunami size. Right. I would have to say that the clients that I have would be bankrupt Pandemic or not.
Bryn Griffiths:
We are in Jasper, so you get a chance to see animals all the time.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Mm-hmm.
Bryn Griffiths:
The weak, some make it and some don’t. And I just tend to think the pandemic is where with businesses, those who might’ve been just on the ledge either got blown off the ledge or found a helping hand, somebody to pull them inside. So I’ve been really shocked, pleasantly shocked at some of the companies that I thought were never gonna make it and have done a great job of not only getting through 5 years, but now they’re into year 6 and it’s full speed ahead.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Well, and I think, you know, it surprised me, you know, Even the large companies that didn’t survive, that surprises me as well. ‘Cause you got the little guys that have, ’cause they’re just gonna keep going.
Bryn Griffiths:
Durable.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yeah. And they pivoted and they’re open to change. But then we have some big companies that didn’t make it ’cause they’re not open to change.
Bryn Griffiths:
Not nimble enough. Do you think?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I think that everybody fights change.
Bryn Griffiths:
Sure.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It’s uncomfortable.
Bryn Griffiths:
Another Canadian thing.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It’s uncomfortable, but you have to go with the changes or you get left behind. And the pandemic did change people’s outlook.
Bryn Griffiths:
If somebody is just tuning in for the first time, Rhonda, tell everybody what you do.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I’m a licensed insolvency trustee, federal court officer.
Bryn Griffiths:
Right. I think you showed me— is there a handbook? Like you said, you showed me a book you had the last time. What was that book?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, more than 5,000 pages.
Bryn Griffiths:
And you have to know all those pages?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I have to know more than that. I have to know all the other pieces of legislation, Canada, Pension, EI, Tax Act, Alberta Personal Property Security Act, gradement liens, the laws of court, because I present in court all the time. And we become expert as time goes. But if we get appointed on a mechanic shop, we have to understand mechanic liens. Are we still in that? We got the vehicle here. We can put a mechanic’s lien on it.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
What about the Environment Act? What’s that about? Where’s the oil been dumped? Where’s the employees? Have they been paid? Have the taxes been prepared? So when we walk in, we kind of sort of don’t know what we’re getting for the specifics, but generally, yeah, a trustee has to go in and take control.
Bryn Griffiths:
And that company might owe other companies, right? So there’s that.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Well, somebody appointed us.
Bryn Griffiths:
Uh, yes, absolutely. So, so how do you learn all that? Is that what it is? It’s all about learning because I don’t think you can memorize a book. That book was a monster.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yes, it is.
Bryn Griffiths:
Like, I don’t know how you do it.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It’s more that it triggers, there is something, I have to go look it up.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It’s that kind of thing. And each province has certain differences. So you have to know what are the differences? What’s the difference between the Alberta Condominium Act and the BC Strata Act? And they’re all to do with condos and they are very similar, but there are different nuances and you have to be aware of that. More the awareness that there’s, hey, hang on, I’ve heard something about this. I better go look. And do it. Generally though, a trustee has to have a degree, minimum of 5 years in the industry, 3 years minimum studying. Um, then you do an exam and the exam is difficult.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
A lot of people don’t pass the first time. It’s 2 days. And then you’re called before an oral board and you may or may not get your license.
Bryn Griffiths:
Pressure’s on.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Now you got, wow, got the government asking questions. Superintendent, it’s probably a lawyer in there, probably a trustee. So you got 4 or 5 people firing questions at you.
Bryn Griffiths:
Crazy. What were you doing before this?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It’s my first job when I was 16.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay. Now, all the podcasts we’ve ever done here, one of the things that I absolutely love to do is I ask people, if you were in grade 9, 10, or 11, could you have ever imagined doing what you’re doing now back then? Like, what would, what would’ve been your dream job in grade 10? What would you have thought of that maybe I wanna do that? And then all of a sudden the road changes. Can you remember?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
No, I was getting married. Okay. That’s what I was doing.
Bryn Griffiths:
Wait, it’s It’s, it’s, it’s crazy. So what steered you in that direction then?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
My first job when I was 16, looking for a full-time job. Yeah. It was the government job that was open.
Bryn Griffiths:
And away you go.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And away I go.
Bryn Griffiths:
Am I allowed to ask you how many years it’s been?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
1979 till now. So.
Bryn Griffiths:
Since then. Okay. Yes. Certain vintage. I got you there.
Bryn Griffiths:
Wow.
Bryn Griffiths:
You know, uh, we’ve talked often about just all the differences in the world. AI is becoming a real hot topic. Does that affect you at all? Can it, can it trim down that book of 1,500 pages and maybe get you down to maybe 500 pages?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
No.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
But with AI, yeah, you got to be so careful. I know you do because we get people phoning and saying, but it says on Google or whoever, whoever’s pulling this information from. Yeah. And it says, well, it says that. Well, that’s not true. Or gosh, in the US that may happen, but you’re in Canada.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yeah.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
You have to perform your duties as bankrupt. If you don’t, you don’t get rid of your debt.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yeah.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And then they go, but I read on this and they go, yeah. And you better check. It’s like looking for anything, you know, don’t take the answer, the first one you get.
Bryn Griffiths:
Correct.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And if it sounds too good to be true, it is.
Bryn Griffiths:
Well, I can give you two examples of this. So when I was going through my cancer battle in 2020 with my stomach cancer, my doctors told me one thing: believe the following sites: Canadian Cancer Society, American Cancer Society, and WebMD, because all doctors go to that for information. Everything else, be on high alert. Just read those three so you’re not reading all the crap that’s out there. And I got to think that, in this particular case, with any potential clients or people that are in trouble, the more sources you go to, the more confusion there is.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Absolutely. And You’re referring when you say that great big book called the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, which refers to all these other pieces of legislation.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yes.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Take that all out there and have it on other people’s websites, whether they’re trustee websites, government websites, lawyer websites, just a creditor’s website, somebody just putting something up just for fun. Check out the source. Just as we’re all being taught with that whole artificial intelligence I’m almost getting to the point that I don’t believe anything that’s said.
Bryn Griffiths:
Well, I think you gotta do your homework at the end of the day, right?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
You do. Check out the source. Is it reliable? Because there’s a lot of, I’m not gonna say lies, but false—
Bryn Griffiths:
Fabrications.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yes. You are. Yes.
Bryn Griffiths:
Wow.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I think that there is an awful lot out there and that’s nothing new, but now we have artificial intelligence, which makes it really look Yes.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yeah.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I think that that’s been there always, but it was easy to do your due diligence and everything, but now it’s all prettied up and which one’s true, which one’s not true, whether it’s news, whether it’s looking for information, which one. And then you got to do your, you got to go and do your research and find out what, what is the truth.
Bryn Griffiths:
At the National Credit Conference in Jasper, uh, which was basically Brought to everybody by the Credit Institute of Canada. You seem to be at a lot of these events and you’re advising all these, uh, the people who are trying to collect.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yes.
Bryn Griffiths:
What do you tell them? What’s the number one thing that they all are mostly concerned about? Is there one thing or is it a multitude of things?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Common thing I saw go through this particular conference is as a collector, you gotta, you gotta manage your file. You can’t just sit and wait and see what’s going to happen. You’ve got to manage it. You gotta be on top of it. You can’t be in the old days, oh, waiting for it to be 30 days overdue. You got to get on it or you’re going to miss the bus.
Bryn Griffiths:
Or you’ll have another 3 or 4 files. Just keep piling on, piling on and piling on.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yeah. But that first one, you’re going to— how much money, how much you’re going to lose because you didn’t file a claim or you didn’t. And all the other collectors are calling for their loans too. So that’s what I found the common is it’s no longer, it’s not a laid-back job and it’s not just making calls and asking for money and that. You got to be aware. You got to be ready to manage. You’ve got to get involved.
Bryn Griffiths:
Talking to my friends at MetCredit, they always explain to me that one of the greatest challenges, and there’s an element of satisfaction to being able to work with people to try to make things work rather than it always be a confrontation. And, and more times now than not, it’s not a confrontation, but it’s trying, getting someone just to pick up the phone is a huge statement, isn’t it?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It is. You know, there’s that whole old saying, you get a lot more with honey than you do with vinegar.
Bryn Griffiths:
Sure.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Because the minute you start coming accusatory or anything like that with people, their defenses are up. Well, you already closed your door.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yeah.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Right? Because all they hear is, and their defenses are up, they’re not going to give you any of the information that you’re looking for because they’re just going, no.
Bryn Griffiths:
Wow.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
You know, so more with honey. I mean, even as a trustee in bankruptcy, So the person has gone bankrupt, whether he’s an honest, unfortunate debtor, it’s for the courts to decide and, and for us to decide to a degree, because there’s good bankrupts and there’s bad bankrupts. Are we going to get them to perform their duties more with, you know, this is what you got to do rather than being accusatory in that? Absolutely.
Bryn Griffiths:
I’m going to ask this because you said good and bad bankruptcies. What’s the difference? Is it just the way people are playing in the sandbox?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yes. It’s the life skill they’ve learned and they’ve had trouble with authority forever.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
And they’re just not going to. They would’ve had trouble in high school too, or junior high. Yeah. Some of them, some, it depends, you know, have they come from another country and their culture’s different?
Bryn Griffiths:
Yes.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Right. But I mean, everybody has to do what they have to do underneath the law. And if you don’t, there is penalty for it. And bankruptcy is no different.
Bryn Griffiths:
Will we talk again in another year or two?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Yes.
Bryn Griffiths:
Will these be the same questions? Because it just seems to me like, There’s always a little different spin on things, but I just don’t— it’ll never go away, will it?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
No. And bankruptcies are as unique as people are.
Bryn Griffiths:
Yes.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
You know, and you have to be open to that. And so when there’s different stresses or the same stresses, people react, but they react differently depending, you know, where they’re coming from, what’s their age, what’s their stage in life and so on. It’s all unique.
Bryn Griffiths:
How do people get ahold of you, by the way? Do you want people getting ahold of you? Like, let me ask you that.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Absolutely.
Bryn Griffiths:
Okay.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Our phone number is 780-444-3939. And we also have a 1-800 number, which is 1-800-535-5367.
Bryn Griffiths:
Good memory.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Sharp. And it’s, we’re available at the name of our company, Fox like the animal, Miles like the road, at shaw.ca or at information@foxmiles.ca.
Bryn Griffiths:
I’m not kidding. I’ve seen that book. It’s big.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
It is.
Bryn Griffiths:
You threw it down in front of me and it was like, it was heavy.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I didn’t bring it today because it’s too heavy to carry.
Bryn Griffiths:
I don’t blame you. I do not blame you at all. Thanks for your time today. Always great. Did we, did we miss out on anything?
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
I don’t think so.
Bryn Griffiths:
You’re always very effective. You do a great job.
Rhonda Fox-Miles:
Thank you.
Bryn Griffiths:
Hey, that’s it for today’s episode of Overdue Advice. We’re easy to find online. MetCredit is on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and X @MetCredit. And you can also check out Brian Summerfelt’s blog. It’s easy to find too. It’s blog.metcredit.com. The website also includes numerous helpful tools and calculators to assess your business debt risk. And we’d also love to hear from you, so subscribe, like, or leave us a review on this or any of our podcasts.
Bryn Griffiths:
And make sure you share this podcast with your friends and business associates. You can drop us a line at overdueadvice@metcredit.com. Overdue Advice, the podcast about cash flow strategies to grow your business. I’m Bryn Griffiths.