In this episode, we’re shining a spotlight on estate collections: a challenging and often misunderstood area of debt recovery. We’re joined by Jojo Staples, MetCredit’s Director of Estate Recovery, who brings over 20 years of specialized experience to the conversation.
We’ll delve into the complexities of collecting on estates, how the landscape has evolved in recent years, and the increasing emotional and legal challenges faced by executors and collectors alike. Whether you’re managing an estate, dealing with unexpected debts, or simply curious about what happens to finances after someone passes away, Jojo Staples offers valuable insights into how compassion, legal know-how, and a human touch are all essential in this sensitive line of work. Stay tuned to learn how estate collections impact businesses, families, and the broader economy in ways you might not expect.
Episode Transcript
Bryn Griffiths [00:00:01]:
This is Overdue Advice, the podcast about how and why debt collection works for your business, brought to you by MetCredit. Hey, my name is Bryn Griffiths. Well, the world of credit and credit collection is always changing. Mostly because the world is always on the move too. Well, today we’re focusing in on estate collections and joining us to talk about this is a repeat guest from way back in the early days of this podcast. In fact, it was episode 14.
Bryn Griffiths [00:00:34]:
So it was time, so on this episode, we welcome MetCredit’s Director of Estate Recovery, Jojo Staples. It’s been a while since you’ve been on this podcast and long overdue, as I just said. But how long has it been?
Jojo Staples [00:00:46]:
It’s been several years.
Bryn Griffiths [00:00:48]:
Wow. And it’s gone fast for you because you’ve been promoted. You now have a new title. Tell everybody what your new title is with MetCredit.
Jojo Staples [00:00:54]:
It is Director of Estate Recovery.
Bryn Griffiths [00:00:58]:
Okay, before we get into all of that, how did you even get started in this? Let’s do a bit of a recap. You. You were in another job and you found this one?
Jojo Staples [00:01:07]:
Yes. So basically, over 20 years ago, I was doing more of the investigative side of locating the estate executors or individuals that are responsible for handling estates. At that time, I was studying criminology and it did not align with my. What I felt my personality was at that time or even now. And so I thought I would try to give est wills and estates ago and see how I did in that.
Bryn Griffiths [00:01:38]:
Was that a big eye opener for you, though?
Jojo Staples [00:01:40]:
It definitely was. I, at that time, wills and estates, I don’t even think I had heard anything about it. It’s just not something that was readily spoken about, you know, preparing your assets or a will even. I had no clue what any of that was when I went into the field.
Bryn Griffiths [00:02:02]:
So how do you learn that kind of thing? Obviously, you know, we’ve talked so often on this podcast about the great people that at MedCredit and it’s a big team and that kind of thing. But how was it for you to just fall right into that?
Jojo Staples [00:02:14]:
It wasn’t easily to fall into it. I would say I had to do a lot of research to see what type of specialized education was available for it. At the time, it was more broad knowledge of law. So I did go into legal studies, and then later on there I found out about all the different certifications and designations that were available for estates and wills specifically. And so I have an extensive education background in that Field, specifically.
Bryn Griffiths [00:02:52]:
I gotta ask you, what was day one like at MetCredit? Do you remember that?
Jojo Staples [00:02:56]:
I do remember day one. It was very hectic, but I was ready for the challenge. I mean, I was very young at the time, so full of energy, and I was ready to take on whatever was presented to me.
Bryn Griffiths [00:03:11]:
Okay, so you get in there, you get started. And now here we are, and it’s 2026. How much has changed over the last six years? How much has changed since the pandemic?
Jojo Staples [00:03:22]:
A lot has changed. It’s definitely … I mean, it was busy during the pandemic, and now I would say I don’t have time to breathe sometimes. This is how busy it is. And a lot of it has to do. Not just with, unfortunately, the Boomers passing away. It’s just the climate has changed. When it comes with estates and people passing away, it’s not just a certain age group that we’re finding.
Jojo Staples [00:03:50]:
We’re finding it’s across the board. And so with that alone and having to keep the human feel in that it’s proved to be very busy and challenging.
Bryn Griffiths [00:04:05]:
It’s one thing when you’re trying to track down credit, but this is estate credit. And so obviously there’s a grieving process for some who are going through this type of thing. Does that make it more difficult?
Jojo Staples [00:04:15]:
It does, because all of our agents, which are specialized agents, need to be aware of where potentially the person that you’re speaking with and is in the grieving process. We don’t know right when we receive an account, we just receive the account from our various clients, and we are unsure of what’s even taken place prior to the account being transferred to our office. So we have to make sure that we don’t just have that empathetic aspect to it, but that we remain compassionate and are able to help the person that we are speaking with in order to complete the account.
Bryn Griffiths [00:04:57]:
One of the things that is very strong to me through the conversations I’ve had with everybody on this podcast, right from Brian Summerfelt on down, is the fact that there’s this empathy, this want to work with people to try to come to a resolution. It’s not chasing after the money. It’s working with people to make sure that it works for everybody. Is that tougher going after estate situations like this?
Jojo Staples [00:05:21]:
Definitely, because we’re not only dealing with, you know, loved ones that have passed away.
Bryn Griffiths [00:05:27]:
Right.
Jojo Staples [00:05:28]:
But we’re also dealing with. We don’t know if the executor is a third party or if it is somebody who’s directly related to the person who has passed. You have to keep that in mind. And while we do have client objections as well, that we, or objectives, I should say, that we have to maintain, we need to also keep that human aspect and make sure that we’re not making things more difficult for the other person, but instead it’s easier to work with them and try to come to a resolution.
Bryn Griffiths [00:05:57]:
When you’re working with people in a situation like this, are people surprised that maybe the person they thought they knew had something kind of hidden away a little bit? Are there always things that you uncover when you’re looking at estate collections?
Jojo Staples [00:06:11]:
Yes, definitely. One of the feedback that we most receive is that they were not aware of either the amount of debt that the person may have had or that it wasn’t dealt with, or that they even the steps that need to be taken in order to finalize the estate as a whole.
Bryn Griffiths [00:06:31]:
Right.
Jojo Staples [00:06:32]:
And that in itself is challenging. It’s a full time job to take on the estate executor role. And so we have to be very delicate with that and make sure that we’re not putting any undue stress on that individual.
Bryn Griffiths [00:06:48]:
Lots of stories out there about the amount of debt people are carrying. And in fact, I saw a number and I don’t know how accurate it is, maybe you can back me up on this one. But five years ago, estates on average were carrying about 20 to 25 thousand dollars worth of debt. Has that changed dramatically over the last five years?
Jojo Staples [00:07:06]:
Most definitely. I would say it’s about double or even triple in some cases.
Bryn Griffiths [00:07:10]:
Okay, yeah. How long does it take to go through a process like this?
Jojo Staples [00:07:15]:
I would say on average… Are you referring to estates in general, or when we receive an account from one of our clients?
Bryn Griffiths [00:07:21]:
Let’s take a look at estates because I think that that might be a little more complex because there might be more people involved, but I don’t know.
Jojo Staples [00:07:28]:
For estates, I would say on average, two years. It’s not too complicated. I mean, you are dealing with government agencies such as Canada Revenue Agency. And so that in itself can take time before you’re able to completely close the estate. But then there’s finding out what assets that person may have had, if any, and notifying or determining what debts are outstanding, paying out any legal or testamentary fees. There’s so much involved in the estate administration, it can stretch out further than two years, but most of the time it’s around the two year frame.
Bryn Griffiths [00:08:12]:
I have to think a will would be a very important piece of documentation for you and everybody else here. Am I wrong there?
Jojo Staples [00:08:19]:
No, you’re definitely not wrong there. A will makes things streamline the processes. Whereas if someone passes away intestate, that is, without a will, it definitely poses a few challenges and lengthens the process and getting things resolved.
Bryn Griffiths [00:08:37]:
What are the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to planning estates and maybe even planning for this type of situation where they pass away and they haven’t said anything to anybody?
Jojo Staples [00:08:47]:
Usually, I would say, in my experience, I believe it’s choosing someone who is too close to you that is not able to remain objective and able to carry out the processes that are involved with estate administration. In a case like that, I would suggest or recommend any individuals, if they want to pick, say, a spouse or a family member, that they also retain counsel to help them. And then that would alleviate a lot of the stress that comes along with the estate administration.
Bryn Griffiths [00:09:24]:
It’s an emotional time at the best of times, without having to add money into the equation. Is that why people can’t make those straight decisions is because there’s just too much emotion involved?
Jojo Staples [00:09:35]:
There’s a lot of emotion and there’s a big misconception that when someone passes away, you just inherit everything right away. And so that can be true in some cases, depending on if an estate plan is in place and there are trusts put in place for that to happen? Most of the time that is not the case. And you’d have to go through the regular estate processes in order to disperse the assets that are there and transfer them to the beneficiaries after the rest of the legal fees, debts, et cetera are paid.
Bryn Griffiths [00:10:11]:
How do you handle all of this, too? Because I’m guessing there’s some people that want to speed it up, and there’s some people who just want to make sure it gets done right. So how do you balance that?
Jojo Staples [00:10:21]:
We definitely strive to go the legal route, so we will give them the recommendation that they follow through with the estate processes. There’s legislation in each province in Canada that dictates how an estate is to be dispersed based on if there is a will or there isn’t a will. And so we recommend those processes. Yes. We have come with cases where people want to speed up the process or cut corners. Right. And so when that happens, we do make sure that they are aware of the consequences to doing that.
Bryn Griffiths [00:10:58]:
I’m sure you’re not surprised by that, right. There’s some people just want to get this over with for a number of reasons, right?
Jojo Staples [00:11:04]:
Yes, exactly. And so we’re willing to work with them, of course, based on the requirements or directives that we have from our various clients. As long as we’re within the law, then we do work with them.
Bryn Griffiths [00:11:17]:
So if we’ve gone from, let’s say, $25,000 to $75,000, that means you’re going to be way busier. Does that mean you get more staff? Is it becoming a growing department or you just have more files on your desk?
Jojo Staples [00:11:30]:
Most definitely. It’s all of the above. More files on the desk, more. My team is growing. It’s growing every day. And so my goal is to make sure, because this is such a highly specialized area of work, that the people that we do bring in onto the team have not only the experience, but they have the judgment, the understanding and the processes on how to deal with people.
Bryn Griffiths [00:11:57]:
You used the term, “Boomer” in here. And I never even thought about it that way. I never even thought about it that way. And you’re right, the Boomer generation is passing away. I don’t want to say at an alarming rate. I think it’s a rate that would be to be expected. So, of course, business would be busier for you. And is the majority of it Baby Boomers?
Jojo Staples [00:12:17]:
It was at the beginning. We now are finding it’s all over. It’s not just Baby Boomers, it’s Generation X, Z, all of the alphabet we have there. So it’s not strictly just that general generation, but yes, a high rate, most definitely the Boomers.
Bryn Griffiths [00:12:37]:
Who starts the process here? Is it a lawyer? Is it somebody who’s been given the task of dealing with the will, that type of thing? How do you find out about this? Is it creditors coming to you? It’s got to be. I’m guessing it might be all of the above.
Jojo Staples [00:12:50]:
Yes, it is. We have clients that assign to us various accounts that need to be dealt with through the estate. And so it’s my team’s job to find out who the authorized individual is, whether that is the executor of the estate. In absence of an executor, the administrator or deal directly with the solicitor, if one was retained to assist the executor to finalize the estate.
Bryn Griffiths [00:13:17]:
Some people may think that when I pass away, everything goes away and it doesn’t work that way?
Jojo Staples [00:13:22]:
Right, Exactly. That is another big misconception. I’m. I’m glad that that is not the case. I don’t know what our economy would be like if that was what actually happened, that everything just disappears, your debt disappears, we probably would pay a lot more taxes than what we’re paying right now. I’m sure there’s something that would be put in place to recover or recoup that loss.
Bryn Griffiths [00:13:49]:
So over these last five years, for you, what has been the biggest thing? Is it just the workload? Is it. Is it getting more difficult or more tricky? Like, what is the one thing that if you looked at these last five years and you thought to yourself, wow, I never saw that coming, or this is something that I’m just starting to notice, like, what would it be for you, Jojo?
Jojo Staples [00:14:09]:
I would say it’s more of the emotional aspect and dealing with the individuals that you speak with daily. We have to keep in mind that like I said before, this human aspect and that they are dealing with a. A difficult situation and these are difficult times as well. So it’s not just the individual that we’re speaking to them about who’s passed away, but we don’t know what’s going on as well in their personal life, which definitely also can reflect in the way that they are administering an estate.
Bryn Griffiths [00:14:43]:
Is there always a bit of a mystery to it, because we talked about what you were doing before you got into this. You still are doing some investigative work. I guess maybe there might even be a common thread here in some respects.
Jojo Staples [00:14:56]:
Yes. We do have specialized staff that actually handle the investigative work for us. And then the rest is our specialized staff that handles in dealing with the estate and trust administration portion and the recovering of the debt from the estate.
Bryn Griffiths [00:15:12]:
Is this a tough job for you emotionally? Are you able to just let it go when you walk out the front door of the office, does it kind of linger a little bit ,or no?
Jojo Staples [00:15:20]:
For myself, no. But I mean, I have over 20 years experience and I’ve really honed in more on the compassionate aspect of the work instead of the empathetic side. Yes, the empathy is there, but when you focus on the compassionate side of things, you’re able to remain objective and ensure that things are being resolved in the way that it should be.
Bryn Griffiths [00:15:45]:
Can you believe where you’ve come over these years, where you just kind of got things started at MetCredit, and now you’ve got this team working under you. How are you working out as a leader? Are you having fun with that part of the job?
Jojo Staples [00:15:56]:
I am, definitely. I love people and I didn’t think I did before, but I definitely love people and I love teaching and my team is a great team to work with. So I’m very fortunate in that aspect.
Bryn Griffiths [00:16:10]:
Because you’re handing down things you’ve learned from staff member to staff member, I do have to think that there’s an element of fun and watching the growth in your team, right?
Jojo Staples [00:16:19]:
Yes, most definitely. There is more to learn as well.
Bryn Griffiths [00:16:22]:
Oh, yeah? Is that make it exciting every day knowing that there’s a new adventure coming this week? I’m sure there’s an element of repetition, but there’s always something new coming around the corner, right?
Jojo Staples [00:16:34]:
Exactly. I’m never bored. I can say that. There’s always a surprise. I always think that, okay, no, I’ve seen it all, I’ve heard it all. Nothing else can surprise me or throw me off. But I’m wrong. Definitely something can come my way that I’ve never heard before or an emotional aspect of it or someone reacting a certain way that I was not expecting.
Jojo Staples [00:16:57]:
So in that sense, it definitely keeps me on my toes.
Bryn Griffiths [00:17:00]:
Okay. And to kind of wrap things up here, if you were to tell somebody that if you get a call, how do you handle it appropriately? Can you maybe pass something along to somebody that maybe all of a sudden a call from you comes out of the blue?
Jojo Staples [00:17:12]:
To deal with it not in a way where you have your back up, in a sense, but more as a business aspect. We understand that this is likely someone in the family who has passed. And our job here is only to help out and resolving the issue whether there are funds in the estate or not. Really, if there are no funds in the estate, I mean, that happens very often. We are very aware of that, and we’re used to that outcome as well.
Bryn Griffiths [00:17:48]:
What happens when there’s a situation like that? Anything?
Jojo Staples [00:17:51]:
In cases where the estate is without funds, we just verify that information, obtain some documentation in writing, and then we finalize our account.
Bryn Griffiths [00:18:01]:
Got it. All right, well, listen, thank you for your time. I know it’s tough work for you. It’s tough to track you down just to book this podcast. That’s how busy you are. Is it ever going to tail off a little bit or does it just keep getting bigger and bigger?
Jojo Staples [00:18:15]:
I believe it will continue to grow.
Bryn Griffiths [00:18:18]:
Okay. Hey, Jojo, thanks for your time today.
Jojo Staples [00:18:20]:
You’re welcome.
Bryn Griffiths [00:18:22]:
Hey, that’s it for today’s episode of Overdue Advice. We’re easy to find online. Metcredit is on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and X @MetCredit. And you can also check out Brian Summerfelt’s blog. It’s easy to find, too. It’s blog.metcredit.com. The website also includes numerous helpful tools and calculators to assess your business debt risk, and we’d also love to hear from you. So subscribe like or leave us a review on this or any of our podcasts and make sure you share that podcast with your friends and business associates.
Bryn Griffiths [00:18:52]:
You could drop us a line at overdueadvice@metcredit.com. Overdue Advice, the podcast about cash flow strategies to grow your business. I’m Bryn Griffiths.